Kidder Kaper and Krew (this K thing is fun) found my last post and have responded! 12 comments on one post may actually be a record for us here at Sex or Television! I was all set - a week ago - to write a scathing post detailing all the weird relationship stuff Kidder has put out there, but the most recent episode of Sex Is Fun has made me rethink this, because despite the fundamental problem that it's yet another show entirely about Kidder and his life, actual self-awareness was demonstrated in the episode, as was genuine, heartfelt sadness that makes it very hard to continue in this vein of snark.
Fact is, my own personal issues with how Kidder runs his podcast and responds to people on the Internet aside, opening up your relationship is a fraught, terrifying thing to do. If you have some time, and you're a personal relationship drama voyeur like me, I'd recommend listening to episodes #276 and #278 of Sex Is Fun. You'll be missing a lot of backstory, of course, some of which I'm still missing too, but it should give you a decent idea of the stuff I want to talk about. And since I'm not going to get into the details of rehashing the history of their relationship troubles here, you'll have to listen to see how what I'm saying applies to their situation.
As I've written before, I don't subscribe to the theory, popular amongst Polaymory activists, that open relationships have to be 100% "fair" to be "good." I am all for individuals and couples setting their boundaries and then communicating them to each other and renegotiating them. I think that "irrational" or "unfair" boundaries are fine, provided the other partner is totally OK with abiding by them. Where you run into a problem is when an irrational/unfair boundary conflicts with what the other partner wants.
Kidder, by his own admission, is really insecure, and has a need to "feel special." I think right there that is a personality trait that is going to make moving forward with a seriously open relationship pretty tricky. People with those needs, right or wrong, are often going to feel neglected even in a relatively happy long-term monogamous relationship, just because without "NRE" (poly-speak for "new relationship energy" which is a ridiculous term that normal people call "infatuation") it is human nature to fall into ruts, take your partner for granted, and so forth and so on. When you open up your relationship to the possibility of your partner experiencing NRE with another person, that's like murder on someone who is already insecure and has a need to always feel like they are the most important person in their partner's life.
That said, I am not a huge fan of the idea that all beliefs and feelings are automatically "valid" just because someone feels them. Having been in a relationship with someone who was seriously mentally ill and thus held completely ridiculous and inaccurate cognition as a result of his mental illness, I think it's ludicrous to say we have to honor everyone's feelings at all times. Crazy feelings are crazy, and while we can feel sympathy to the person having the crazy feelings, it doesn't mean we have to validate the false cognition said crazy feeling is based on.
I honestly feel that in order to do any serious amount of openness seriously, both partners need to feel absolutely secure in how "special" they are to their partner without necessarily needing a huge amount of reassurance about it. Because opening up is challenging even for the most secure people, really. To this end, I'm not convinced that Kidder and Jade are really good candidates for having a more open relationship (apart from what they've been doing all these years that didn't challenge their relationship as much). And it sucks for them, because they both obviously want a higher degree of openness but are unable to agree with each other's boundaries on how to handle that. They both want an emotional and sexual relationship with other people that threatens the other person.
It's almost like the SiF people are at one end of the spectrum and the PolyWeekly folks are at the other. The latter discusses jealousy in open relationships by refusing to deal with it or making pat remarks about how bubble baths and "taking care of yourself" is the cure to jealousy. The SiF point of view seems to be that twinges of jealousy are to be responded with by demands on your partner and endless "processing" as opposed to any sort of introspection or willingness to try to work on and move past the insecurities that are causing said jealousy. I will say, as someone in a committed relationship, that I am overall more sympathetic to the SiF approach because at least it is more likely to ensure the survival of the primary relationship, whereas the PolyWeekly folks are incensed by the very idea of a primary relationship, because it's not egalitarian enough.
I think there's a line in-between that isn't particularly popular and doesn't have some sort of cute catchphrase, but involves both respecting your partner's boundaries but a willingness to advocate for your wants; communicating when you're feeling insecure or upset with your partners actions but also being willing to endure feeling shitty at times and owning your own shit.
Here's an example. The Boy and I started our path to what is now a pretty open relationship by having threesomes with other men. None of them went terribly well, and I was frustrated after the last one and tired of the effort and the awkward sex. I told the Boy that I'd actually be OK with him, in the future, having sex with men without me present, although we'd have to discuss the terms in more detail at another time. I also told him that I wouldn't be comfortable with him having sex with the guy we'd just finished having sex with, though. (Hey! Semi-irrational boundary!)
The next day I checked the joint e-mail account the Boy and I had set up for arranging said threesomes, and saw that the Boy had e-mailed the guy we'd just had sex with about hooking up one-on-one. I was shocked and furious. I called him from work and demanded to know why he'd do that when I'd just brought up the possibility of him seeing other guys without me and specifically said I didn't want either one of us to have anything to do with that guy. What did the Boy do? He lied. He claimed he hadn't sent that e-mail. When he realized I had proof, he copped to it. I was livid, sick to my stomach, threatened to break up with him, told him he'd just ruined any chance he'd had of being able to have sex outside our relationship if our relationship even survived. At the time I felt righteously furious, now I realize I was being a little melodramatic.
This mirrors a lot of the kind of things that led to Kidder's current troubles. He caught his wife chatting with her paramour and didn't disclose it when he asked. My partner lied to my face about making a sex date with another person. How did we get through this huge betrayal of trust?
We talked about it. Not for days or weeks, but for like, a couple hours. I realized the Boy and I had a miscommunication - he thought I'd essentially given him permission to fuck other guys, full stop, and was really excited by this new freedom. When I called him to confront him, he realized that he'd triggered all my fears and insecurities about having a cheating bisexual partner (as my ex cheated on me repeatedly with men) and panicked. And because he didn't want to appear to be just like my ex, he lied.
Like Kidder, I wasn't mad that my partner wanted to have sex with someone else - I was upset that I'd been lied to. And I felt like I'd granted him this gift, something that wasn't easy for me and in the very first instance he could, he fucked it up and proved himself untrustworthy. Actually so far, I'd say based on the podcasts, that what I was feeling and what Kidder was feeling intially - why did you lie to me after I'd just granted you something awesome? - were very similar. So dudebro, I feel ya there.
But instead of making a podcast where I got my friends to passive-aggressively rehash the wrongs my partner had done to me, I talked with the Boy and sat with my feelings, and was able to realize that his intention was not to betray me or hurt me. And that my reaction - overreaction - to the Boy's e-mail put him in a place where he was terrified to admit to it because of my insecurities and past. It didn't take "three years" to work past, it took about a week or two before I was cool with him going off and fucking someone else. And he did. Crazy!
Of course, moving is easy to do when you have faith in your partner. Despite the fact that he'd just lied blatantly to me, I still believed that on the whole the Boy was truthful with me. What strikes me about these podcasts, particularly the latter one, is that Kidder does not believe Jade will be truthful with him. Which is apparently borne out by the events that follow. The question is, then, is Jade just a terrible lying liar who lies, or does Kidder's reactions - perhaps, dare I say, overreactions - to Jade's initial "disclosure glitches" help create an environment that almost guarantees she won't fully disclose to him? That I can't say, because I am not Lorax, their relationship counselor. (Btw, guys, that's kinda fucked up, just sayin'.)
The latest podcast certainly makes it sound like Jade is a terrible lying liar. But it's also clear that the amount of disclosure needed - full access to all chats, texts, Facebook pages, etc - is a bar that makes having an open relationship kinda tricky. Kidder is defensive of his need to have full disclosure to be OK with the openness, but the full disclosure also gives him the ability to monitor everything obsessively and stew over real and periceved slights in a way that doesn't come across as totally healthy. I have, in theory, a "right" to know all of the Boy's activities online. I have almost never taken advantage of that right because I don't feel a need to. I trust him. When I have, what I've seen has validated my trust. I guess it's a different can of worms when what you see does the opposite. If Jade is as untrustworthy as Kidder describes, then I don't see how they can even consider having any serious degree of openness in their relationship. But in that case I also don't get why they even have a relationship. Trust is important for a lot of reasons, not just because you're involving other people in your sex life.
I should note, for the sake of fairness, that I have violated the Boy's boundaries too. I had (oral) sex with a guy without his permission, told him immediately a fterward, and to be totally fair, his reaction to it was so much more sensible than my response to his indiscretion. This is the thing that is missing in the discussion of opening up on SiF - WHEN NEGOTIATING OPEN RELATIONSHIPS, PEOPLE WILL FUCK UP. This needs to be shouted from the rooftops. There is absolutely no way to move forward with open relationships without a certain amount of fucking up, miscommunications, "disclosure glitches" and the like. It's just the way this goes. After gazillions of years lurking in Poly and Swinging boards, it seems that people run into the most trouble when they don't expect people to fuck up, and then are blindsided and really upset when it does happen, and then freak the fuck out.
What people don't seem to realize about open relationships, even if they claim to, is that it really does take a lot of internal work. I don't mean endless discussions with your partner, but internal discussions. I feel like someone in an open relationship should constantly be thinking about how they're creating their own cognitions, and whether those cognitions are based in reality or their own insecurities. While it's apparent that Jade fucked up, big time, it also seems like Kidder created a self-fufilling prophecy, based in his own insecurity and fears that he isn't "special" where he was going to, from the get-go, interpet any behavior on Jade's part as proof of what he already believed. Jade played her role perfectly, as the Boy said when we were discussing it this morning, almost as if she was pushing the buttons that would make him freak out the most. It's the sad dance of bullshit that I think most of us in long-term relationships will somewhat identify with. But to do openness successfully, you have to radically alter these sorts of programmed responses. Sometimes it's more important to shut up and sit with your feelings as opposed to making demands. Otherwise you're just going to end up in a war for control, which appears to be exactly what happened.
I mean, if either of us had demanded a partner cancel a date because we weren't feeling 100% secure and OK with it at that moment, I don't think we would have ever really opened up our relationship at all. It takes your partner doing something that perhaps you're scared about, having it happen, and then realizing in the end that your survived and it wasn't that bad to feel cool about it next time. Or at least, that's how it worked for us. Our approach may not work for everyone, but we have a remarkably open relationship with few restrictions or need to monitor each other, and we both used to see ourselves as highly monogamous, insecure people. And I've found that once you realize you can live through something you're terrified of and feel OK about it later, more and more boundaries you used to see as inviolable start to feel unnecessary. I went from the point where I knew I'd never be OK with the Boy having sex with another woman. Now I think it's something I could handle, although I know it would still intially cause me some distress and anxiety.
Let me make a terrible analogy: anal sex. Although a lot of people like to claim that "if you do it right" anal sex won't hurt at all, the reality is that even with tons of foreplay, using small plugs and a ton of lube, and so forth, for most people, intially having anal sex with a penis-sized object will have some discomfort, if not "pain" exactly.. It'll feel uncomfortable and perhaps provoke some anxiety. If you can slowly work past that, you might end up really digging it. Or you might be able to do it, but not find it enjoyable and worth the discomfort and effort. But if you stop at the first sign of discomfort, you're never gonna get that dildo up your butt, period. Of course, you also have to have trust that your partner isn't going to shove that thing up there before you're ready.
Or to sum up all this tl;dr: open relationships are not for control freaks and although it's trite, trust is paramount, but so is the willingness to forgive, a genuine desire to move forward, and actively try to give your partner the space to be trustworthy. It's a real leap of faith. The Boy has his own, somewhat different take on this (one that's a lot harsher on Jade, actually), so I'll try to get him to weigh in. I still have a butt-load of opinions about how Kidder handled this stuff, particularly on his public Facebook, but I wanted to use this post as a way to maybe take some lessons from this volcano of drama that people could use to think about what kind of philosophical and practical approach they take to openness, not to tear Kidder a new one. But I still might! Anything can happen at Sex or Television! I hope some of the people who came here via Kidder's Facebook page will stick around, because we talk a lot about open relationships and non-traditional sexuality in general here. And I write posts that are way, way, way too long.
6/3/11
Sex is NOT Fun: Nor is This Super-Long Post
Labels:
jealousy,
open relationships,
podcasts,
polyamory,
sex education,
sex is fun
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
OK here I am, the so-called relationship counselor.
ReplyDeleteI was, am, and forever will be their friend. All I have done along the way is listen, and keep them from becoming irrational in an argument. They are going through something completely different than I have with my husband, something at times that I cannot relate to as I just plain don't read into every action and reaction as much.
You don't need to agree with Kidder's facebooking or monologue on the podcast. Just know that for him it really did help him purge all the anger and hurt he was feeling so he could forgive Jade. I know the night we recorded was the turning point for him, which in turn made the turning point for him and Jade.
There is one more show in the saga, with only Jade and Kidder, that I think will tie it all up for you.
I gotta hand it to you, you are not in anyway traveling this planet with malfunctioning insight calculator. I think you got A BUNCH of it right on the money and actually reading your words brought a lot of how I was feeling into the, "Well of course that's why that happened! or "Why I felt that way!" Hindsight is not always 20/20 but like a game of chess it is way easier to see the best move when you are a spectator.
ReplyDeleteI'd really say that the only time your insight may have lead you astray is about the self-fulfilling prophesy stuff. In Desire, our relationship was more open than it ever had been EVER and I was learning new stuff about Jade, and she was learning about herself and it was awesome. I was very open everything only pausing to make sure I wasn't caught up in the moment. I've never felt that secure and awesome and in love and loved and blah blah.
Before we even left the trip I knew she'd want to continue her relationship with him, so I thought about it and came to the conclusion that there was nothing wrong with that at all we could share that excitement together. I know she'd feel great and so would I as long as she kept me the know. So I really just explained how important to me that was and she agreed completely.
After her disclosure glitch, I really did not react negatively AT ALL. She was so high and excited from the chat that I was mostly happy for her that she got to feel it. All I did was reexplain how important to me and our relationship that we both do for each other what we both asked each other for to help us make a good experience. I know you think I flipped out, but even Jade will tell you that I was totally cool. A week later I was totally cool and reassuring when she did it again.
Now I know you have come unfortunate conclusion that I'm a super possessive asshole snooping and spying on Jade but that simply isn't the case. I NEVER looked at anything she didn't give me express permission to see, which I'll admit was anything I wanted. This wasn't something that I made Jade do, this was something I've ALWAYS offered her. I've always allowed her 100% access to my phone my email, my history (one rule applies here that she's not allowed to judge me for my literotica history, WHAT?!? I explore). We hadn't thought of logging our chats until after her first non-disclosure, which we both regret as it has caused problems with insecurity in the past for us, but not my insecurity, Jade's.
-I'll explain-
About a year ago Jade gave me permission to flirt and have sexy chats so I did, and both times I told her about them she got really insecure which didn't make me feel good at all so I stopped having them. She said that if we'd thought to record the chat so she could read them, she probably wouldn't have felt that way. Honestly, it seems to work so I'm cool with it. That and I kinda think we both get off voyeuristically from each other's flirting.
Anyway, I've always decided that radical honesty was the best approach so I've always offered it. If she feels insecure I'd much rather her look and see there is nothing to worry about than to feel worried or punish us both with worthless paranoia. If a lover ever calls you and wants to know if you are where you say you are, don't get upset, just pull out your phone, snap a picture of the frozen waffles in the shopping center to prove you are where you say you are and send it away. I know that a lot of people think that is strangely oppressive but i've never cared. I want my partner to trust me, not waste time arguing about their desire to see trust.
So yeah, we peep each others stuff but it is something that we've both consented to give each other.
Lorax - Since I "have your attention" I am honestly curious how you kind of justify your role as friend/therapist/sexual interest in this relationship. My husband and I have a very open relationship, way more than Kidder and Jade. But man oh man would I be threatened if my husband had a friend like you. Not because you're a bad person, but there's obvious, acknowledged sexual tension and chemistry between you and Kidder PLUS the emotional bond. Plus you "work" together. Plus you "counsel" them? IDK girl, that sounds messy as hell to me. Based on what I heard in the last podcast, Jade isn't entirely comfortable with your role here and tbh, I don't blame her. Because you're cool/sexually adventurous AND have an emotional bond with Kidder - that's like, napalm for insecurities right there. I don't know how Jade can stand it. Apparently she can't, always. At the very least - admittedly ONLY knowing what I hear on the podcast and see online- I would recuse myself from the position you've put yourself in as counselor. Cuz it's kinda weird.
ReplyDeleteKidder - I am not trying to paint you as unreasonable controlling guy. You seem way more aware than 90% of dudes that controlling dude behavior is not OK. At the same time you strike me as a control freak and I say this as a control freak myself. It's funny because listening to SiF, there's some ways where I really identify with Jade, but on the whole I think I'm way more like you. I want talk shit out. I want to post my feelings in public (and am always fighting against that urge). I am pretty blase about sex stuff but am very insecure about being the most important person emotionally to my partner. Perhaps I take you to task a bit because I can recognize some of your behavior in myself.
I don't think being a control freak is bad and I don't think you're super controlling dude, but the fighting you and Jade describe did boil down to control, did it not?
Having listened to everything I'm well aware that not only did you have permission to look at Jade's stuff but that she invited you to. My point was just that...maybe it's not such a great idea. I demanded the ability to see all my partner's online stuff after our disclosure glitch and it reassured me. I do check from time to time to ensure everything is above board and I have always found that to be the case. But I also find that looking too much is a form of self-torture. Even if he's doing everything he's supposed to be doing, seeing him interact with other people, sexually, in a way I'm not involved in...it doesn't make me feel good. Unlike you, I don't get a sexual thrill out of it. I love the idea of my husband fucking guys, and I enjoy being present for it, but reading his flirtations or hearing bout his experiences in detail honestly has only left me feeling more insecure, even if he's doing everything above board and correctly. It's just one of my jealousy triggers.
You may not operate this way, and for you the good of knowing everything may outweigh the bad of...knowing everything. But I'm just throwing that out there. And I thank god that we use our Facebook pages primarily to interact with family and our sex lives don't factor into it.
Ugh, ellipses abuse abound. Too much wine, and it's still dark outside but the birds are singing. Fuck northern latitudes, time for bed.
ReplyDeleteGirl-
ReplyDeleteI get there are some things that make Jade insecure, I don't think you have ever heard me deny it. But you are missing the fact that I am not just Kidder's friend, I am Jade's friend, I am like a pseudo-aunt to the kids. My husband has been friends with Kidder and Jade for 19 years. I have been friends with them for 14. My husband lived with Kidder in college and was his best man. Kidder officiated our wedding. This is not a relationship any of us are willing to just toss aside. And when I say any I am including Jade. There has been only one really significant instance where Kidder and I had to back off and Jade was the first one to say she didn't want to lose our friendship.
Most people would kill for a friendship like ours, and I'm sorry you think it's all messy and weird. To each their own.
Lorax - thanks for the history. I don't know if you've shared it on the podcast but I had no idea y'all were so close. Although honestly that makes feel even a bit squickier for Jade? Admittedly we're coming from radically different perspectives here: the Boy and I are fine with really just about anything sexually with other people, provided it's safer sex, and we're far more concerned about emotional attachments. You guys...almost sound like a poly family, y'know?
ReplyDeleteI don't think it's "weird" you're all friends, but I do think it's a little weird that you try to counsel them through open issues when your relationship with Kidder is a big part of the open issue. It seems unnecessarily complicated. I'm not saying you all shouldn't be friends - I'm saying that it seems to me there'd be less drama if the same person who was counseling Kidder and Jade through all this wasn't the same person Jade apparently finds most threatening to her marriage. Obviously you can (and will) do what you want - but as an outsider, yeah, it seems like it's going to create a bunch of conflict.
You keep using that word counseling. I interpret that as that I gave them advice on what to do. I think I did that once and they both choose not to listen. I will again say that all I have ever done is listen and point out when either of them were being irrational.
ReplyDeleteIf Jade were to show up here I think she would be the first to admit that I am objective and point out Kidder's irrationality just as often. Because I have a long history and knowledge of their relationship Kidder will actually listen to me when I call him on his bullshit, something a stranger will not be able to do.
About halfway through this saga I told them they may need to seek a professional as I thought I no longer had the ability to identify with their situation. They reiterated that all they were asking of me was to keep them on track and rational in an argument. And they have both used that in person, via IM, and via phone when needed.
Somehow you are under the impression that Jade is threatened by me all the time, when that is just not the case. Again she will be the first to admit that she has been pretty cool with allowing all kinds of freedoms throughout our entire relationship, not just in the past few months. Something that even I need to be reminded of.