6/10/11

Consent: is it OK to go from No to Yes in one evening?

(X-posted from School for Scandal)

So, I am really lucky to have good health insurance and a great gynecologist. (I was seeing a GP before who was fucking useless.)My current gyno got me on continuous birth control on a low estrogen pill, as a person whose life used to be ruled by PMDD, this is one of the best things to ever happen to me.

So anyway, I visited her a few days ago for my checkup, and I told her about my plans to become a sex therapist. She told me about how she treats a lot of patients with sexual dysfunction and advises them to use vibrators (and referred me to her favorite vibrator shop). I love having a sex positive gyno (the first one I ever saw when I was a teen told me I shouldn't shave my pubic hair and that I needed to lose weight- I guess she was working at my high school's free clinic for a reason.)

I also told my Doctor about SlutWalk. She told me she treats a lot of women who have been dateraped and the advice she gives about consent is this:

"If you say no one evening, you need to stick to that no. You can say yes the next evening, but you need to be consistent with your consent, otherwise men think that if they push hard enough, they can turn a no into a yes."

I see her point (a similar technique is used to keep dogs from begging for scraps at a table) but if it's generally agreed that if you initially give consent and change your mind, you have a right to stop things without being judged. (I'm not talking about wishing you hadn't slept with someone the next day or retroactively changing your consent, I'm talking about actively communicating a change in consent at the actual moment.) So is it legit to say at the beginning of any evening, "I don't want to have sex tonight," and then after some heavy making out say, "I changed my mind, I do want to have sex tonight?" I think a mature dude should be able to handle this without assuming that he can turn every no into a yes. But is it, as my gyno claims, breeding messy boundaries? It certainly enforces the idea that women are responsible for preventing rape, rather than teaching men to roll with clearly communicated changes in consent without making assumptions.

I can think of one specific incident where I did this. It was on a second date with my previous boyfriend. We started making out and I told him I didn't want to go below the waist. The truth was, I did want to have sex with him but I set this boundary because I was looking for a relationship, not a hookup, and I wanted to take things slow. However, things got late, my train stopped running, and it was clear that I was going to sleep over, and I wanted to. So, I said "fuck it," and changed my consent (and clearly communicated this.) The next morning we talked about it over breakfast. "I did want to have sex with you, but I was afraid you would treat me weird the morning after if we did it so soon," I explained.

"Am I treating you weird now?" He asked, giving me a hug. And we did start a relationship, even though we had sex on the second date instead of the third, or fifth, or six months, or whatever society dictates as the appropriate time to have sex in the context of a relationship.

(An aside- anyone who casts you aside for having sex with them "too soon" is not worth being in a relationship with. Anyone you have to "manipulate" into a relationship, rules style, is probably not going to be a good partner. But it's probably a good idea to keep your expectations low in the beginning.)

So it was a weird situation because I initially said "No" out of fear of rejection, even though I wanted to say "Yes," and did change my consent over the course of an evening. I don't think this incident has made my ex into a date rapist, but I can see how with some less evolved dudes it might be problematic.

Very curious to hear what others think about this.

3 comments:

  1. Consent is tricky in general and I think I may be looking at things in general in a bit more of "grey" context than the current (4th wave? ugh is that a thing) internet tends to take it.

    For instance a lot of said young internet feminists claim any sex under intoxication of any kind is rape, although only in one direction (i.e. if a guy and a girl are fucked up, and they have sex, the guy has raped the girl and not vice-versa). While I am obviously sensitive to patriarchy and the fact that said culture makes it hard for women to say no even if they want to, I find this concept problematic, as there are different stages of intoxication. If a guy fucks a girl who is clearly not in control of her faculties? Obviously rape. What if they're both buzzed and consenting? It's complicated.

    There was an apocryphal story on a forum I sometimes visit about a "no, then yes (then no)" scenario that sometime relates. a girl told her boyfriend that no matter what, she didn't want to have sex that night. then they both got drunk, and she started coming onto him, hardcore, so he reciprocated, and the next day she felt taken advantage of.

    It's a complicated case, although most everyone branded the dude a rapist. I wouldn't go that far, although I do think that he shouldn't have had sex with her, based on her prior sober request, but I'd say he probably should've dumped her, because no good was going to come from a situation where a request like that was made in the first place knowing that while drunk, she'd try to get with him. It puts him in a no-win position.

    I certainly have gone into several situations "not wanting" to have sex and then ended up having sex. Some of these were due to slight coercion on the part of the dude and my desire to appear "cool" but that was when I was much younger. In general it's been like the situation you describe - not wanting to take things to "that level" intellectually but physically still desiring the sex.

    I think consent is one of those things that has to be talked about over and over and over to dudes because it's complex and confusing. Some feminists paint it as a black and white issue but in my experience as a woman who fucks dudes, it's often no. I have been guilty of saying "no" when I wanted to have sex and guilty of saying "no" and then "yes". I've also been a victim of pushy, asshole guys who take advantage of the confusion our culture pushes on women with regard to sexual agency.

    When all is said and done, I think we need to teach men to only accept positive consent. Even if it's lampooned (I think Dave Chapelle had a skit about this) if a guy requests positive, verbal consent every step of the way, and only assume that said consent applies as far as that particular act goes and makes sure to get consent for another act, and obviously stops when there's even a hint of "no" - things would be a lot simpler. At least as far as initiating things with a newer sex partner - it would be rather silly in a long-term relationship where couples have come to consent understandings (of which mine are: you can fuck me when I'm drunk, you can fuck me when I'm sleeping, and if I punch you it means I'm not in the mood, otherwise, go for it.)

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  2. I love the last comment there. I have the same agreement with my own mate. He 'could' wake me up having sex but only because I gave him express permission to try it :)

    I don't think its far to label drunk sex rape. Its not a good idea, but its not rape if the guy TRULY though it was consensual and at the time it WAS.. You may have regrets the next day, but maybe you'll think twice before getting that drunk in the first place!

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  3. Of course women can, if they want, change their mind, but from experience, it is fucking mean. I had a girl I know make out with me all night in a club, saying we were going to shag, and then she said she couldn't at the last minute. There's a kind of preparation the male body does for sex, it is hard to explain. This isn't in anyway justifing sexual assault or harrassment or anything, just in the interests of good genders relations.

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