Just A Chat Post

 I've started to real blog entries but then got sidetracked talking to the BoyAboutOaktown instead.  So instead of a real post, you just get a tedious chat transcript.  Hopefully we'll get some more real content on here soon.  Enjoy my lack of punctuation and grammar!

me: i was reading these bi blogs linked to a bunch of articles from a few years ago about mcgreevy and such, and women in relationships with bi and/or gay men who are closeted. and these articles, they use bi and gay INTERCHANGABLY. it's not surprising but it's still so bizarre

it's just further proof that people see bi male as just a transitory identity on the way to full on gayness

although it was interesting that two of the blogs these bi men blogs linked to were men who had come out as bi in marrigaes and then ended up coming out as gay. it's so weird that it gets used that way

i think it has a lot to do with how we construct identity in general though.

these men behaved in what we'd term a bisexual manner for 20, 30 years in some cases

i'm not saying they can't adopt a gay identity now, but we conflate identity with orientation

if you have had a successful loving and sexual relationship with a woman for many years your orientation is probably not 100% homosexual as we think of it

 boyaboutoaktown:  True.  I think there's also a lot of pressure societally

 No, but a coming out is a coming out.  Now you're ghey.  Once you've tasted the peen.

 me:  plus there's nothing like a relationship gone sour to make you want to swear off the sex of the person you were with

 boyaboutoaktown:  Yeah, I can see the guys having an affair with some guy who's totally not their wives, and listens to their shit, and they think, "Hey, this is far better than my marriage.  I must be gay"

 me:  if your experience with women for the last 30 years was an experience with one woman that left you feeling trapped and resentful, i could see the appeal of  "YEP GAY NOW"

 boyaboutoaktown:  Wait, gays get lots of head from someone who worships my cock in the two hours each week we're together instead of reminding me about taking the kids to school.

me: plus if these marriages were sexually stiffling and these men are basically having like, a second adolesence sexually by fully embracing the sexuality thy've repressed for 30 years. it's easy to see again why that identity would be adopted. i just don't buy that these men were "secretly gay" all along. some of them maybe, but not all.

 boyaboutoaktown:  Of course I was gay, I was miserable with that woman for the last two decades.

me: i find it interesting that so many of these bi married guys end up in relationships with very sexually conservative women. did you notice that on shybiguys?

it seems to be a recurring theme. the freudian in me wonders if they were subconciously seeking out sexually conservative women to avoid having to confront their own sexual desires

 boyaboutoaktown:  Interesting.  I've never thought about it, but it does dovetail nicely with their own self-loathing. Why not get someone who resents that as much as you claim to.

 me:  yeah, idk, i may be pulling it out of my ass.

i mean there's the small subset of happily married bi men in open relationships with sexually liberal female partners who are usually bi themselves, but on the whole married bi guys seem to be in relationships in which the sex wasn't great to begin with

and quite a few of the closeted ones seem to be prone to cheating on their wives with men and women, too

 boyaboutoaktown:  I think you may be on to something.  Then again, quite a few of them describe relationships in which their partners were much more queer-friendly and then took a decidedly "no-homo" turn after kids et al

 me:  yeah that's true, a lot of women get more conservative re: sex post-marriage and kids

 boyaboutoaktown:  Does it say something that women who are more sexually liberal would go for a man who is so repressed about his identity?

 me:  quite possibly, maybe that they are attracted to an aspect of his queerness yet afraid to fully embrace that. after all what does that say about THEM. in my experience most women partnered with men, regardless of their liberalism or queer friendliness, tend to have a strong distaste for any non-gender-conforming behavior in their male partner, even while being attracted to aspects of it.

if your man has feminine traits, it's like it throws your femininity into question. and then there's the perennial fear of being a beard, which relates to percieved sexual undesirability

 boyaboutoaktown:  Though isn't there something gender-conforming, oddly, in wanting to see your man fuck and dominate another man?

 me:  i think so, a guy who is a top is still maintaining some degree of a masculine gender role

but then again, how many bi men in het relationships are tops? have we ever come across any?

 boyaboutoaktown:  Right.  He's dominating another man in the most extreme way possible

 me:  it seems like the majority of bi men in serious relationships with women are bottoms or maybe vers with a tend towards bottoming.  well we've talked before about how maybe so many 'straight-ish' bi men tend towards submission b/c in their heterosexual lives they are expected to be dominant by default.  men don't get to express submissive desires much because it's seen as feminine

 boyaboutoaktown:  True.  I think that comes up again and again on shy bi guys.

 me:  to the point where maybe some of these straight identified guys engaging in bi sex might really be more straight than bi, but just really submissive, and in our culture women dominanting men isn't taken seriously

because only a man can truly dominate, y'know?

 boyaboutoaktown:  These guys feel freed by the fantasy of being submissive. Hence much of the cock worship.  They want to be taken. Being submissive to a woman is verboten, but being sub to a man, well, you've already crossed the homo line.

 me:  i think it's deeper than that, like, a domme woman is almost a form of drag. it's not taken seriously, it's just a costume, almost a joke.  there isn't a real threat.

 boyaboutoaktown:  I think it is play acting to an extent

 me:  right, whereas when a man in dominant it can be play but there's an undercurrent of reality

 boyaboutoaktown:  But I think it's also about being able to express tenderness and vulnerability in a way that society frowns upon.